Poll

The future of nether ice roads?

Make a central hub where the current Spawntown portal is. Future expansions at this y level.
3 (60%)
Move the ice roads to another y level with minimal empty space/lava.
2 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Author Topic: Nether Ice Roads  (Read 196 times)

Bla

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Nether Ice Roads
« on: 2014 03 30, 00:15:36 »
Lately there has been a discussion regarding the planning of nether ice roads. While I'd like us to have transportation infrastructure near the roof of the nether, so we avoid interfering with the empty space and terrain down there at the surface, Yqt pointed out that we already have a lot of portals connected down there and it's take a lot of effort to move them up.

We already have a few portals (Kaktolake, Pine Hill and the northern mesa portal) near the top with the horse roads surface at y = 105), but we have a lot more portals down at y = 65.

I think the roof is the ideal place to make such infrastructure so I think it's the best option to move the portals up in the long term, and get it done as soon as possible before we make even more portals and roads at ground level.

Another question is whether we want portals both near the roof and at around surface level, because near the roof there will be horse roads (and probably rails in the future, when they can go faster), while at the surface we have the ice roads atm. Or if we'd like all our portals around the same y level.

Vote in the poll.

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b-ong

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #1 on: 2014 03 30, 02:44:03 »
wait i voted wrongly i vote for second not first
also i will move my portal

Bla

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #2 on: 2014 03 30, 02:47:18 »
I cleared the votes, revoted and enabled vote changes.

Komrage

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #3 on: 2014 03 30, 03:37:20 »
We will estimate it takes 8 seconds to 1 meter of 2m-wide ice road at the current level, and 6 seconds at the ceiling.
Ice mining: 4s
Tunneling cost: 2s
Walling cost: 4s (at current y)

To move a portal takes 60 seconds. 15 to remove the obsidian, 10 to record the coordinates, and 15 to move and rebuild and relight. Also add 20 seconds to dig out the surrounding area and connect it to other portals and the roads

These numbers are on the high side, but then again i've never completed any of my projects in calculated time due to getting materials, food, and a bunch of other complications. I will assume these are correct for now.

I will estimate that there are 600 m of ice roads. 200m on the desertopia side, 200 on aeridani's side, and 200 near yqt. I will also guess that there are around 30 portals (around 10 in the desertopia region and probably similar amounts elsewhere). Therefore, to move everything up currently will require 6*600+30*60 = 5400 seconds. This seems like somewhat of an underestimate but i'll go by it for now.

Smooth tunnel junctions don't make travel faster. The vast majority of the time, I am trying to get to spawntown, not aeridani. A smooth junction would most likely result in overshooting, which would waste as much time as having to slowdown and speed up. And as high speed rail comes closer to reality, it is likely that there will be no difference between a perfectly flat junction and one involving one or two block gradients (because of ejector rails). It is probably the case that all tunnels at the same y level would not save any time nor waste any.

New ice tunnels will save 2 seconds per meter. Assuming two new players join each year and each build 60 meters of ice tunnels (480m overworld), and an additional 180m of ice tunnels is extended(1440m overworld), 300m of ice road is added onto the network each year, saving 600 seconds. At this rate, the costs of moving everything up will be recovered in 9 years.

It's not as simple though. I have a furnace center at y = 30 or so, a wither skelaton farm at the same level, and darvince still uses the blaze farm at y = 60. I make an average of 30 trips to the furnace a year and 50 to the wither skelaton a year. I assume other people take lava from the nether too, or travel down as it is hard to glowstone from the ceiling. If there are 100 trips to y = 60 each year, each taking 60 seconds from the ceiling (and 30 from the current level), then we are set back 3000 seconds per year, which means we have negative benefit.

If we allocate 3600 seconds to build 10 portal elevators to the most commonly descended places, then our total time cost is 9000 seconds which will take 15 years to recover.

If we move downwards, and assume there is no cost for making any trips up or down since we are not as far, then the original estimate of 9 years still stands.

I consider both 9 and 15 years somewhat optimistic for how long people will be playing on minecraft. The doomsday argument suggests something like 4 years. Therefore, I don't think it is worth the time.

I also consider 5400 seconds an underestimate, although some may consider it an overestimate. If they do, then I wouldn't mind them moving my portals and roads up there along with everyone else's -- it'd only take about half an hour of two people's time. I don't mean this in a condescending manner, but it's probably be more efficient than six people running around trying to connect everything.

While the mode of transport may be different (ice road, high speed rail, enderpearl), once the tunnel is built, changing the insides doesn't take different amounts of effort depending on where you are. I will install high-speed rail in my ice tunnels and fiah's when it comes out, so that is not a factor in my decision.

I've never been obstructed, bothered, or blocked by a ice road or similar tunnel before, and i like the aesthetic appearance of human dominance over the terrain, so that is also not a factor in my decision
« Last Edit: 2014 03 30, 03:54:22 by Mudkipz »

Bla

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #4 on: 2014 03 30, 13:05:42 »
I've spent days building a 6 km long road pretty much nobody is going to use which might pay off in a millennium, I've spent hours hollowing out Spawntown Public Storage and 50% of it is still empty, I don't actually care at all if it takes 3 hours to move some portals and infrastructure, I'd have no problem moving the portals people want moved to the ceiling and moving the tunnels. If all we cared about was using as little time as possible the most efficient way is to stop playing. Having things that look nice is also important to me, and the terrain in the nether at the surface isn't flat at all. Cobble roads with slabs and stairs following it could look nice, but I don't agree that flat ice tunnels that completely ignore the terrain do, that's not terrain dominance to me, so I don't think the surface is a good place for them. Yqt said he planned to decorate his ice tunnels. If you have to decorate ice tunnels to make them look nicer, that brings up the time costs too, but I don't give much for all those estimates and assumptions in the first place. There's simply no way to predict when everyone abandon Blacraft, how many players are going to join, etc.
« Last Edit: 2014 03 30, 13:09:59 by Bla »

Komrage

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #5 on: 2014 03 30, 13:25:24 »
i don't have the same pressing urge to standardize everything or lower the time cost for new players in the nether so i'm not inclined to spend time moving everything.

« Last Edit: 2014 03 30, 13:46:59 by Mudkipz »

Bla

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #6 on: 2014 03 30, 13:48:28 »
Fair enough. We've discussed this a lot so I suggest people just vote, and then we respect what gets the most votes.

Bla

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #7 on: 2014 04 03, 23:24:38 »
I'll run this poll in the voting center for a week from (if I remember it) tomorrow, so remember to revote, I'll transfer Blotz' move vote and Kip's and smjjames' make hub votes.

Bla

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #8 on: 2014 04 04, 18:26:47 »
The poll has been moved to Blacraft Voting Center and I've transfered my, Blotz', Kipz' and smjjames' votes. Idk who the last one who voted for option 1 is, but make sure to vote in the voting center. I'll close the poll in this topic.

The poll in the voting center will close on April 11.

Bla

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #9 on: 2014 04 11, 00:59:54 »
So the poll ended and we voted for moving the ice roads.

I'm suggesting to move them to the top near the horse roads, since the horse roads are at 105 and the tunnels are 3m tall, I'd suggest 110. The altitude below the horse tunnels seem to have a rapid drop towards more openness, so I think building them just below the horse roads would leave them too exposed.

Another option is near the absolute bottom of the nether, below around y = 18.

Consider this graph:

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/minecraft.gamepedia.com/a/a7/Block_layers_nether_1.5.svg?version=a5a8bc632cc420aef7f83ca35d1571ab

b-ong

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #10 on: 2014 04 11, 01:42:40 »
nah, i like top, ,prob because i already dug a tunnel to bongatar and desertopia there.

Bla

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #11 on: 2014 04 11, 13:11:47 »
Ok, Kip, Fiah, Yqt (or anyone else), can we agree to move the ice roads to y = 110 (foot level)?

AeriOwl

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #12 on: 2014 04 14, 21:14:07 »
yes
I am going to eat you like mudkipz, but I should probably kill you first.

Bla

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #13 on: 2014 04 15, 16:10:45 »
The poll has ended, with 3 voting for and 0 against the ice roads at y = 110.

I have moved Spawntown's portal so it's now in the top of the mining central, and links to a portal at y = 110 at origin. I have connected the ice road you built up there (Fiah).

I have also moved Kaktolake's portal 10 meters up so it's closer to the horse roads.

I recommend people who want their portals linked to the ice roads to move their portals up there. You can tell me if you want any help. Portals interfering will probably be an issue when trying to move them, to avoid that, it might help to move your portal up higher in the overworld, at least temporarily until more portals have been moved to the higher altitude in the nether.

Darvince

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #14 on: 2014 04 16, 02:00:48 »
can there be 2 portals in spawntown mining central or a special portal building

Bla

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #15 on: 2014 04 16, 16:15:25 »
I might be able to set 2 up, but why?

Darvince

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #16 on: 2014 04 17, 23:08:00 »
one at regular level y=65 and the other at ice roads level y=110

b-ong

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Darvince

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #18 on: 2014 04 18, 06:37:25 »
because it would take longer to sprint from darvincia to spawntown if I had to go up 50 y levels when I reached spawn

b-ong

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #19 on: 2014 04 18, 06:38:37 »
we're moving up ALL the portal
no one is left behind

Bla

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #20 on: 2014 04 18, 11:01:58 »
one at regular level y=65 and the other at ice roads level y=110
because it would take longer to sprint from darvincia to spawntown if I had to go up 50 y levels when I reached spawn
Moving the portal up solves the problem.

Bla

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #21 on: 2015 05 25, 13:27:59 »
I'd like to revive this discussion. We voted to move the ice roads up more than a year ago now, and we've got a fair number of players who have moved their portals up and been connected to the infrastructure there, but Kip, Yqt and probably some others still haven't, and I have the impression they're not planning to. Suggestions for how we deal with this split up distribution of portals that aren't very well connected? Could we convince the rest to move up, or do people want to move down again or continue with this split up distribution?

b-ong

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Re: Nether Ice Roads
« Reply #22 on: 2015 05 31, 18:05:48 »
i heard yqt was deciding about moving it up but was too lazy